Withoout raisinng suspicion; how does one find out their states law regarding what info has to be provided if asked by police? Is a person required to carry ID on them? Couldn't a person lock their license in the vehicle's glove box and leave it there? Given the connstantly changing laws; how does one learn what they can legally do and not do? The suggestion of asking if you are free to go, and if required, giving your info so as they have no time to copy it all down are good ideas.

... I'll answer one of your questions: Unlike some countries, you are not required to carry ID in the United Sates or Canada.

"Seth, your proposed conversation is a virtual guarantee that the person stopped will get far more attention than he or she wanted or was risking in the first place.

"Additionally, Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court and the Terry v. Ohio case on which much of the Hiibel decision was based more or less obviates the notion that a person has a right to refuse to ID himself, including providing an accurate address.

"Most states have laws on the books providing for penalties for lying to the police in such a situation, and like it or not, the ongoing trend in society for ... oh, I don't know, 150 years or so ... has been away from freedom, not towards it.

"Please see info from Duke Law on the Hiibel USSC course below, which has links to the actual decisions and filings involved."

=====================

Frank, you are correct in part. But the key to a Terry Stop, and the requirement for identification is reasonable articulable suspicion or probable cause to believe that the individual being detained has been, is currently, or is about to be involved in the commission of a CRIME.

While Hiible does indeed intrude farther into the privacy of individuals, the trigger is a crime of some kind.

In this case, being a "missing person" is NOT a crime, and when it comes to adults, a person is NOT compelled to provide identification documents to the police in answer to a missing persons report. Nor is one required to provide ID to an officer merely because he asks for it. Only if he has legitimate particularized suspicion that YOU are a suspect in a crime can he detain you in the first place. Warrantless, suspicionless "stop and frisk" is completely unconstitutional, although cops do it all the time, particularly in New York, Chicago, and LA, according to press reports. The problem is that the people they stop illegally are too stupid and too poor to sue the police.

And while I agree we've been moving away from privacy, we must jealously guard what we have remaining, and that includes not answering fishing expedition questions from cops during voluntary contacts.

As far as giving the police a false address, yes, this can get you into trouble, but only if they have a reason to check up on you, which again requires a crime of some sort that triggers their legal justification for a Terry stop. The key is not to give them an address at all unless they can demonstrate why they have a legal right to demand it. And there is NO requirement I've ever heard of requiring you to give your phone number to the police.

However, you do bring up a good point. NEVER LIE TO THE POLICE unless you are willing to risk an arrest, because it's pretty common for them to charge you with obstruction of justice or some such crime if they figure it out, and lying to a federal officer is a felony.

If you really insist on not giving them accurate information, then say nothing and take your lumps for doing so.

In this case however, there is actually no justification for a Terry stop, because being "missing" is not a crime, so any investigation has to be by consensual voluntary contact. Therefore, one SHOULD be able to just politely decline to answer any questions, even to admitting your identity, and walk away.

One should always ask a police officer, immediately whenever contacted, "Am I free to leave?" The answer to this question will generally tell you whether you are a suspect in a crime or if this is merely a voluntary contact.

If it's a voluntary contact, then you NEED NOT RESPOND to the officer AT ALL, and you may simply walk away, and should do so, unless you don't want to, but realize that you CAN walk away whenever you like, so long as you haven't chatted your way into being a suspect in a crime, in which case a voluntary contact can segue into a Terry stop and an arrest perfectly seamlessly, IF you shoot your mouth off and give the cop the information he needs. So don't talk. Listen if you like, but don't surrender to the natural inclination to have a "friendly chat" with the police. Whenever the police stop YOU, they are NEVER your friends, and just because they are good at being chatty and friendly doesn't mean they are going to overlook an admission that gives them a reason to arrest you. So shut up.

If the officer says, "No, you are not free to leave at this time." then you have been detained pursuant to Terry v. Ohio, and Hiible requires you to identify yourself, but not necessarily provide documentary identification.

In Colorado the law requires to you to provide your name, your address, a reasonable explanation of your actions, and identification "if available."

Note that "if available" does NOT allow a police officer to search you for ID. He cannot legally take your wallet out and rifle through it during a Terry stop.

You may say, "My name is Seth Barfly, I live at 1245 West 12th Street, and I'm going about my lawful occasions. Am I free to leave?"

You do NOT have to provide date of birth (in Colorado), and once you've given him the information, you need not do it again. If he didn't write it down or remember it, that's not your problem, and you should decline to repeat yourself, except to continue to ask if you are free to leave.

Eventually he will either arrest you or let you go, but you SHOULD NOT answer any questions he might ask, having fulfilled your duty to identify yourself.

People should, of course, know the details of their particular state's laws regarding what you are compelled to provide by way of information to a police officer.

Yes, in some cases you're going to be forced into the system, but knowing your rights, and knowing how to respond to an officer, and understanding whether he has legal authority to detain or arrest you, or if he's just fishing and it's a voluntary contact you are free to walk away from is essential for everyone, and it ought to be taught in school.

The key phrase: "Am I free to leave?" asked at about 5-10 minute intervals until he says yes, and you walk away, or no, and eventually he arrests you.

But if he arrests you illegally, you have legal recourse against him, so let HIM make the mistake by not giving him any information that you are not legally obligated to provide. If HE turns a voluntary contact into a Terry detention or an arrest WITHOUT the requisite probable cause or reasonable suspicion, the whole thing is open to attack at trial. But if YOU VOLUNTEER information that gives him the PC or RS he needs, during a voluntary contact, you're toast.

Maintaining privacy requires a mindset like a Russian, skeptical of any sort of personal inquiry, and deep reluctance to give out any sort of personal information just because someone asks.

If a cop demands your ID, you ask "Am I free to leave?" If he says "No." then you ask "Why am I being detained?" You may not get an answer, but by asking, you are putting the onus on him to answer your reasonable questions, and if he refuses, then later, in court, it appears that the officer was acting in bad faith by refusing to answer such a simple and reasonable question.

You may eventually end up having to fork over an ID, but you're establishing a defense and a claim for police misconduct by asking them to justify their detention of you.

Make them work for it and justify why they are making these demands, just do it politely and reasonably so that they can't argue that you're being belligerant or obstructive.

Additionally, Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court and the Terry v. Ohio case on which much of the Hiibel decision was based more or less obviates the notion that a person has a right to refuse to ID himself, including providing an accurate address.

Most states have laws on the books providing for penalties for lying to the police in such a situation, and like it or not, the ongoing trend in society for ... oh, I don't know, 150 years or so ... has been away from freedom, not towards it.

Please see info from Duke Law on the Hiibel USSC course below, which has links to the actual decisions and filings involved.

Submitted Link #1: http://www.law.duke.edu/publiclaw/supremecourtonli...

I was able to avoid giving my home address to the company I currently work for. But if I work for a company with branches throughout the country, does the new hires directory match my name to the address of my specific office?

And if so, let’s say I transfer to another location within the company. Would this new office address then go into the new hires directory, or does the initial hiring information remain unchanged?

I was also curious about who can gain access to the directory. The website says that “commercial entities (e.g., law firms and collection agencies) do not have access to the NDNH.” However, I assume that at least most law enforcement and probably P.I.s can get into it somehow. Just curious… The link below has more info on what the agency requires employers to provide about new hires.

Submitted Link #1: http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cse/newhire/employ...

I have been using your privacy methods in order to avoid someone who is also a close relative in another state. I payed cash for a house using one of your LLC's in June and did not put any of the utilities in my name. I have been receiving all mail at a small privately owned commercial mailbox business about 20 miles away from the house, although I had to use my real name.

I created a seperate NM LLC(not through HTBI) and gifted my car to it at the same time I put new TX tags on it in March(I moved to TX from out of state one year ago). My real name is not on the LLC as organizer.

In September I was stopped by police near the mailbox business(3 miles away) for no reason except to notify me that the relative had filed a missing person report on me and they took my current address and phone which they reported back to the out of state agency(I then told the police I did not want the relative to know my current location).

Do you have an idea of the most likely method I was located(after being invisible for one year)? Apparantly it has something to do with the car, but I bought a new car last year and the relative did not know what I was driving. Also, the state I moved to was not known. "

This is an example of the fact that it is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to hide from the government.

If you continued to use your real name, if you voted, if you opened a bank account, filed your taxes or even simply opened a post office box in your own name, that information gets passed around and ALL of it is open to law enforcement.

When I moved, and opened a new PO box in my name in a nearby community (using my old address that is still "technically" my home address), that new PO box was reported to the credit reporting agencies within 72 HOURS of opening it.

The first place a skip tracer (including the police) will go is to your credit report. While Joe Average Skip Tracer might not have access to certain details in your credit file, the police can access ANY information if they are engaged in a legitimate investigation, and that includes missing persons investigations.

Knowing that you'd opened a PO box, and having a legit missing person's report, and likely a photo from your relative, the originating agency forwarded the BOLO (Be on the lookout) to all agencies in that area using the NCIC (National Crime Information Center) computer system.

The BOLO remains in the federal system until the person is located, which can mean literally forever. If you're EVER stopped somewhere, your name pops up as a "person of interest" or "missing person" because EVERY police department queries NCIC for warrants and wants on EVERY traffic stop.

The police in the jurisdiction where your PO box is located had a missing person's report with a photo, and likely were told to be on watch, and eventually you got stopped. Must be a small town, if they have nothing better to do than sit around at the post office looking for a missing person.

Now, here's where you made a serious mistake: You should NOT have given them your home address OR your phone number, you should have politely declined this request, citing your personal privacy. (By the way, dump the phone and get a new phone in the name of one of your LLC's, even if you have to pay more for a business number. Do it right away, and then don't give the number to ANYONE.)

Here's how the conversation should have gone:

Officer: Hello Brenda, I'm officer Jones. I have a missing persons report out on you and I'd like to check to make sure you're okay.

Brenda: Thank you officer Jones, I'm fine, and I'd appreciate it if you would notify the originating agency that the report was instigated by a stalker in an attempt to find me, and I want NO information given to ANYONE under ANY circumstances. I want the report closed as "unfounded" and I want the originating agency to be notified that they are not to tell the instigator that I have been located. If that information is released to anyone, I will immediately sue everyone involved for an invasion of my privacy.

This is a matter of personal privacy, and I demand that my privacy be respected and that all records of this contact, and the report itself, be destroyed.

Officer: Well, Ma'm, I'm just trying to do my job, don't get mad at me. Can I see some identification please?

Brenda: I'm not mad at you officer, I simply want to be left alone, which is my right as a free adult. Unless I am under arrest, I respectfully decline to provide you with any information that might inadvertently or deliberately be leaked to the person I am trying to avoid, therefore I decline your request for my home address or phone number. I hope you understand how important it is to me that my location be protected, I would hate to have to file a federal complaint against the town for violating my privacy. Thank you for your concern, but as you can see, I'm fine, I'm not under any duress, and I demand my privacy be respected.

Am I free to leave now officer?

Officer: Well, yes Ma'm, you're not under arrest, so you're free to leave.

But now you're in their system, with your new home address linked to your name, and this means that if your stalker has "people skills" and can convince some credulous cop, he can query NCIC, find out which agency contacted you, and pass that info along. This gives your stalker the general area, which allows him/her to come and try to "social engineer" more information from the local police, and all the info he/she needs resides in the police files.

You really ought to move again, if you're in danger, but if you can't, it is IMPERATIVE that you go speak personally to the Chief of Police and firmly request that he, personally, collect all data that his officers have on you, including CONTACT CARDS, notes, reports and any other record, written or computerized, and purge it from the police department files, ESPECIALLY your new address.

If he won't cooperate, you should consider going to a local district judge and filing a petition for a writ of mandamus, which is an order of the court, binding upon the police department to purge all records of you, your address, and their contact with you. You might need a lawyer.

If you manage this, and you can get the originating agency to do the same thing, you might be safe.

This sad experience shows how one little error in trying to disappear can render all your work useless.

The most important thing you have to remember is to NEVER give up personal information to ANYONE for ANY reason, including the police, unless they can present you with a legal requirement or an order of the court to do so. And NEVER give them your actual home address under any circumstances, always have a plausible backup address, like a friend's house, that you can give them. Make sure your friend understands what's going on and will back you up if asked.

I hope you can resolve this situation. Be firm with the authorities, they don't have a legal leg to stand on, and you do.

I created a seperate NM LLC(not through HTBI) and gifted my car to it at the same time I put new TX tags on it in March(I moved to TX from out of state one year ago). My real name is not on the LLC as organizer.

In September I was stopped by police near the mailbox business(3 miles away) for no reason except to notify me that the relative had filed a missing person report on me and they took my current address and phone which they reported back to the out of state agency(I then told the police I did not want the relative to know my current location).

Do you have an idea of the most likely method I was located(after being invisible for one year)? Apparantly it has something to do with the car, but I bought a new car last year and the relative did not know what I was driving. Also, the state I moved to was not known.

This is what my wife an I both did with no problem--an electric bill mailed to the mailing address looked like we lived there. :)

Hope that helps and inspires, Thanks JJL for everything you do.

The post office might frown upon this if it suspected that the format was deliberate rather than some mistake, but wouldn't your mail still get to you box?

One reason for this is that, when asked for my address and begin giving my PO box, sometimes they'll interupt and say that they want my physical address for whatever reason (which, of course, I'll not give them).

(Despite the number following a CMRA address, many who request your address do not realize that it's not a street address, especially if, for example, you mention that you live in an apartment complex, and they assume it's the apartment number.)

... No one can give you a specific answer to this, Jack, because rules are not enforced equally in all post offices. Some will allow most anything to pass, and others are brutal! This applies in many other countries as well. For example, Rosie Enriquez took over a P.O. box 2 in a Canary Islands village when the original box holder moved away in the late 1990s. Every since, mail in any name has been delivered to that box. That is, until last week. A new postmaster has suddenly blocked all mail that is not in the name of the original box holder. Since the original box holder left the area 15 years ago, the PO Box is now useless.

Does an NM LLC that is only used to hold title to car(s) still file Fed. tax forms like usual LLC's even if there is no income? Thank You.

... It's a cleaner deal, Tom, to use a NM LLC for the sole purpose of car ownership. It is therefore transparent to the IRS.(That means it is never mentioned to the IRS and no tax return is required. If there is a capital gain, or income, it shows up on your own tax return.) Get the insurance in your own name.

I tried again a week or two ago, at a much smaller town not too far from where I plan to moor my new retirement home (a boat) when its structural repairs are done and I am ready to move aboard.

It all went very smoothly, indeed. The local P.O. wanted two pieces of ID, and I showed by passport and my driver's license. (The DL lists my true residence address as well as the mailing address at the PMB. I figured that no harm would be done, since I plan to move away from that residence when I move aboard the boat.)

They had a variety of sizes of P.O. Boxes for rent, and I chose size "C", which is large enough for any magazines to be laid flat in the box. I paid $100 cash for a year's rent, plus a key deposit. According to the notices I read when applying for the box, the info I supplied is kept on file at that local Post Office. There was no mention of it being entered into any national database.

I've checked the box several times now, and so far no mail at all has been received. I expect I may get some mail addressed to "occupant" or "box holder," but I will visit the P.O. box often enough to clear that out.

I have not yet given out my new P.O. Box address to anyone. For now, all mail is still being directed to the PMB here in Salem. When I do move aboard the boat, I'll tell trusted family members about the P.O. Box address.

The box lobby at that small-town Post Office is open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. I did not observe any CCTV cameras surveilling the box lobby.

From this experience, I infer that, when looking for a P.O. box, one should check out post offices in small towns!

She called over the manager who was hesitant at best. I told him that the passport was a federal document. He then ok'd it and left.

The lady then starts looking for my social security number, LOL, she casually asked me, while looking for that number on my passport, what my SSN was. Then she says , "OH, THERE IT IS!" Well, what she was looking at was my passport number.

o being curious, I silently wondered if I could enter my passport number into the small kiosk. If I entered my passport number instead of my true SSN, would it alert the cashier??? If it did not work, I was prepared to make this statement, "OH i thought you said enter your passport number"

So I entered the passport number and no alert came up at all. I have used the passport number several times and nothing negative has happened. It seems that maybe any number could be used and is only used for security purposes but I would not use a valid one that belongs to someone else

Unfortuneately, I have not found a niche to be able to work from home like your book explains but I am still searching.

... It appears that your passport, like mine, has nine digits--the same as a Social Security number ...

Connecticut requires all the usual info SSN/DOB/Address when setting up any checking accnt with an EIN. I don't know if it even matters to use a NM LLC in this situation, or just a plain old CT LLC. My accountant explained that the info Ct needs whether or one regeisters as a NM LLC or any other state LLC is fairly invasive.

Fortunately I'm moving next Summer. In the meantime here is what I intend to do:

Buy NM LLC. Open an account at a small bank here in CT. Use my real home address with the accountand EIN number docs, but have all mail sent to CMRA.

Create biz cards, letterhead and all biz collateral with CMRA address as return address, sans the # sign before the box number.

I do not have a ghost address yet, nor a nominee.

Is there anything else to do for the short term, which would protect privacy, or at least set me up for an easy dive off the grid when I move next summer?

Thanks - Joe

... I am not convinced you MUST form an LLC but since it is for a business purpose, I suggest you form the LLC in your own state. (Perhaps it can be owned by a NM LLC with an address in Alaska but check first with your accountant.)

There are so many lapses in logic with this plan that I truly don't understand the point. My eyes "cross" when I take my glasses off for photographs. I could easily put a hat on for public surveillance photos, add a wig, change my hairstyle, wear dark glasses, whatever..... And SMILING is my primary facial expression! If these photographs are meant to be matched up to facial recognition databases, then going by the parameters required, my photograph on my driver's license should NEVER come close to real life.

Does anybody here know the real purpose of "facial recognition" photos?